- You need to write one conversation starter (1 paragraph) about any or all of the poems. Your conversation starters can be personal or reflective in nature, or they may be analytical. You may also pose questions as well.
- You will also need to reply to at least one classmate's conversation starter (1 paragraph). Be sure to address (by name) the classmate(s) that you are responding to.
You should have completed your TPCASTTs before posting.
This discussion ends on February 5th at 11:59PM ET.
I thought that these poems were a little more straight forward than last week's. I thought that Donne's "Death be Not Proud" was by far the most comforting of the three. It directly addressed death through apostrophe and trivialized it with a metaphor comparing it to sleep and by just making fun of it in general. It made death into a person that would eventually die while the rest of the world slept peacefully which is a rather comforting concept. Thomas' "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" was much sadder to me because his desperation to avoid death was stemming from his father being on the brink of dying . At first I thought the speaker was being ridiculous in telling sick, old men to fight death with everything they have, but it all made sense when I got to then end and realized that he just wasn't ready to let go his dad yet. Housman's "To an Athlete Dying Young" was comforting in a dark way. Yes, dying young may bring eternal glory, but you would miss out on all the joys of growing up in the real world so it's not necessarily worth it like the speaker is saying it is. However, there is definitely an element of comfort that comes along with all the door and window imagery. It makes death seem not like the all together end, but more like just passing through to a more peaceful, slower world. Overall, Housman's and Donne's poems were much more comforting because they made death seem like a peaceful existence that you can accept with nothing to fear while Thomas' was much more distressing because if made death out to be something you fight against as hard as you can no matter what condition you're in. The only thing that confused me a little was the 7th line in "Do Not Go Gentle Into that Good Night". Is "wave" referring to the last generation of good men or is it referring to a literal wave that killed them? Side note: I wouldn't press "preview" on the blog page. I clicked it and it deleted everything I'd written so I had to redo the whole post. I probably did something wrong, but I just wanted to let everyone know so the same thing didn't happen to anyone else.
ReplyDeleteI agree that Donne's "Death be Not Proud" was the most comforting of the three poems. Personally in line 7 of "Do Not Go Gentle Into that Good Night" I thought "wave" was referring to the last generation of good men. Looking back at the poem with the use of "green bay" in line 8 I can see how wave could be taken as an actual wave following along with the ocean comparisons in this part of the poem. I think it's meant to be taken as more of a metaphor than an actual wave.
DeleteJoanna, the way I interpreted the "last wave" was as an actual ocean wave that represents a group of "good men," who argue that if their life had been longer, thus if the wave had not crashed on shore, that they would have had more time for "deeds" that could have "danced in a green bay." I think the selection of detail in this stanza emphasizes the abruptness of death, just as the wave abruptly dies on shore, but it also captures the violence of waves, which further advances the speaker's argument to put up a fight against death.
DeleteMy favorite poem of the three was Donne's "Death, be not proud" because of the allusion. The last two lines, "...we wake eternally/And death shall be no more;" alludes to Revelations 21:4-5, which reads: "...and there will no longer be any death...and He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new."" In Revelations, God is referencing his coming to Earth and starting new life, which parallels Donne's verse "we wake eternally." This is the final blow to death and the conclusion of Donne's argument: Death loses purpose when a person is reborn into the Holy Kingdom and will forever be abolished when God himself comes to join people on Earth.
ReplyDeleteThis was also my favorite poem of the week because of the deep meaning it holds. I saw the allusion to the Bible and eternal life in the last two lines where it states "we wake eternally/ and death shall be no more" but you brought a whole new level of meaning to my attention. I think its awesome that you found a perfect Bible verse that alludes to this poem. I read the poem and thought that it was saying basically don't give Death the pride and honor of taking your life, instead when it is your time to go own it and enter this new journey as happy as you possibly could be. I see now that my idea was very simple compared to the detail you revealed and this helped me look more extensively into the big picture.
Delete^In reply to Madsion Long.
DeleteI just posted this but it went away so I might actually be posting the same thing twice...anyway I thought this was an allusion to the Bible but I wasn't sure what it was alluding to. I'm glad you found it. This was my favorite poem of the week as well. I liked how hopeful it was. I also liked the irony it contained. Death isn't normally portrayed as the loser or slave, so it was neat to see.
Delete"Death, be no proud" was already my favorite of the three, but I hadn't noticed the allusion to Revelations until you (Madison Long) mentioned it. The Second Coming of Christ would make sense, especially since the parallels are there. Another reason that it is plausible is that "Holy Sonnets", while possibly referring to the sonnet's value, most likely refers to the direction towards religion that Donne is hinting at us to take.
Delete"Death, be not proud"*
DeleteLike everyone else so far I really enjoyed Donne's "Death, be Not Proud" and found the whole concept of it very comforting. Out of all of the poems I found Housman's "To an Athlete Dying Young" the most interesting because after reading the title I really wasn't expecting it to go in the direction it did. The idea that the athlete dying young is okay because his glory will now never fade is very grim but makes sense. In the poem "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" I really liked line four and five "Though wise men at their end know dark is right, Because their words had forked no lightning...", the idea that even though the wise men know death is natural they still fight it because they haven't accomplished everything they wanted to is easy to understand but at the same time very interesting. In "To an Athlete Dying Young" I had a hard time understanding line 22 "The fleet foot on the sill of shade,".
ReplyDeleteIn reply to Tessa: I agree with you that "To an Athelte Dying Young" went a totally different direction that I expected and I also think that the idea of the athlete dying young being okay makes sense now after reading it since the author really made his case with the aspect of glory. I also agree with your comment about "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" and I think that it is just our human nature to want to live longer and accomplish more in life before we die. Line 22 meant that the athlete was stepping into the shade of death while holding his trophy, so it signifies him taking his glory with him to the grave to hold forever.
DeleteTessa, I believe what it meant in "To An Athlete Dying Young" about "the fleet foot o the sill of shade" was that the athlete was on the verge of going into another life (in this case death). I thought about how sills are in windows and he is not exiting by a door. That was sort of symbolic in itself, the idea that the athlete is not completely exiting out of others lives through a shut door, but rather a window where one can still see him and his legacy.
ReplyDeleteMy personal favorite poem this week was "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" because it was probably the saddest. The poem goes from being in impersonal observation to personal story about his own father's last moments. It was so full of hope, even though it was in a situation where no hope lies. I also found all the lighting references throughout the poem as an allusion to a reoccurring theme in the Bible. Much like how God put light in the darkness, this "light" was being introduced to people as they were dying (which is probably the darkest part of life). I don't know if I was the only one to take the speaker to be kind of selfish in his part of telling his father to avoid the light, but I guess that does reveal a lot about the human nature when it comes to these situations.
ReplyDeleteI didn't even realize the references to the light in "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" until after reading your comment, I went back and reread the poem. I also agree that the son is being selfish, but I believe he is doing so unintentionally. I think that he doesn't want his father to regret passing on and missing out on what the living world has to offer. This also shows the common fear that people have of the unknown and death. If the son knew the father was entering an eternal life much better than the one he is in now, then he would be at peace with his father passing on. Instead, he encourages his father to resist death; to resist the unknown.
DeleteThis is my second time trying to post this so I hope it actually posts this time. I also thought the speaker in "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" was selfish when he was speaking to his father. Not only is he asking him to avoid the light by fighting death but he also begs him to cry for him. This reveals that the speaker is scared of his fathers emanate death, which definitely shows human nature in reaction to the death of a loved one. By asking his father to cry he is seeking confirmation that he has tried with all that he has to fight death, avoiding the light, and that he too is scared of what is going to become of him after death.
DeleteI believed all three of the poems centered on death and/or whether to accept it or rebel against it. “Death, Be Not Proud” by Donne seem to be the most empowered by the three; it felt as though the author was addressing Death itself, face to face, and conquering its fear. A common way to conquer a fear is to talk about it; whether just defining it or looking for its weaknesses. This is what Donne did. He pointed out that although many people think of death as “all-powerful”, Donne draws attention to the fact that death is merely the effect of our own actions, whether intentional, accidental, short-term, or long-term. Also, I found it encouraging that Donne encouraged his readers to, instead of thinking of Death as an end, to think of Death as a beginning to eternal life.
ReplyDelete“Do not Go Gentle into that Good Night” by Thomas was equally encouraging, but with a different point-of-view. Instead it inspires the reader, and at the conclusion we realize the poem is meant for the authors’ father, to resist death because there is always more to be done and experienced. It reminded me of a quote from someone who had attempted suicide by jumping off a bridge; he said that he jumped because there seemed to be no solution to his problems, but after he had jumped he realized none were as important as his impending death. That reminded me of this poem because the son is telling the father that even though you may feel at peace with dying, if you do you’ll regret everything you missed out on after your death.
To me, “To an Athlete Dying Young” by A.E. Housman was the most difficult to interpret. I believe the main purpose of the poem was to encourage young athletes to not center their life on sports simply because of the fame and glory they get from it, because one day their glory days will pass. Unlike if they center their life on the more important things in life such as love, which will last much longer. The poem referenced love twice: First when it says the laurel (a symbol for victory) “withers quicker than the rose (a symbol of love).” Second, when the last sentence says “the garland briefer than a girls.” I interpreted this as insinuating that love outlasts any fame received from a race or game.
When I first read "To an Athlete Dying Young," I thought the same thing about the speaker encouraging young people not to center their life around sports, but I do not know if that is what the speaker is really trying to say. The first two stanzas talk about how the townspeople honored the victor and carried him on their shoulders.I think the speaker believes sports and victory have great value, and this poem is more of an elegy that finds good in the fact that the athlete died young.
DeleteReading these poems made me happy, which is strange because they are all about death. I especially like John Donne's "Death, be not proud" because of the way death was conquered in the end and because the whole poem was very uplifting. I thought it was very entertaining too. There were many parts that sounded Biblical, which is not surprising since it is of Donne's "Holy Sonnets." I really like sonnets because they are short, and that is not just because they are easier to do TP-CASTTs for. If a poem is short, one can take the time to analyze every small detail. With longer poems, it is not as essential to understand every single detail (which is good, because I barely even understand half of these poems).
ReplyDeleteOut of all three poems,I struggled the most with "To an Athlete Dying Young." Some of the harder stanzas took eight or nine reads for me to comprehend the meaning. I am still a little confused on the last stanza, specifically the last two lines. Can anyone help me out?
I interpreted the last stanza to mean that "the strengthless dead" (namely, the dead) are gathered around the newly dead athlete who still has an "unwithered" (fresh, newly won) crown of laurels (crown of victory) on his head. I am not sure about the last sentence, however; it threw me off. Hope this helps!
DeleteI agree with Madddie that the first part of the stanza is about the dead gathering around the young, victorious athlete. Andrew, I interpreted the last two lines to be talking about how his victory is eternal. I thought the "garland briefer than a girl's" referred to the little flower crowns that children like to make (daisy chains and that sort of thing) which wither and die very quickly on earth. However, I think the poem is saying that the garland will remain "unwithered" for eternity in the afterlife and the flowers, like his victory, will never die as they would in the mortal world. I hope this makes the lines a little clearer!
DeleteThe poem that caught my attention the most was probably "To an Athlete Dying Young" by A.E. Housman. I interpreted the poem as a sort of wake up call to a young athlete dying. The big picture that I understood was kind of that even though the athlete is reaching the end of his lifetime, he is luckier than all the other famous athletes. This is because even though he himself won't be on earth much longer, his name shall live forever because of his famous young death, while the other athletes will have to see a time when no one cares about their fame anymore. Even though this is a very harsh idealization, I understand what the writer is trying to get at. In this world we all strive for power and fame. I think the writer is trying to say once you get that power, don't be afraid of where it may take you because even if it looks bad from the start you never know how amazing it might end up being.
ReplyDeleteMy favorite poem of the three this week is "Death, be not proud." I enjoyed the bold taunting and mockery of death. In the lines "For those whom thou think'st thou dost overthrow / Die not, poor Death, nor yet canst thou kill me," I was a bit surprised at his claim. He is saying that Death cannot take him, or anyone that it tries to take. I thought it was a bit weird that the speaker went from saying that rest and sleep are only imitations of death to saying that poppy and charms could make us sleep as well as, or better than, Death's own hand. I really enjoyed the last line, "And death shall be no more; Death, thou shalt die." He is saying that we needn't fear death, because there is an after life in which we will live forever. I found this poem oddly comforting. Even though it is dealing with death, after reading someone making a mockery death, I fear it a little less. One thing I noticed about the poems this week was that all of them dealt with death, but each addressed it in a different way. In "Death, be not proud," the speaker mocked death and said it was nothing to be feared. In "Do not go gentle into that good night," the speaker treated death as something that must be avoided at all costs. In "To an Athlete Dying Young," the speaker explained why death at a young age is not necessarily a bad thing.
ReplyDeleteI like that all three of this weeks poems circled around the same idea, which was death. My personal favorite of the three was "To an Athlete Dying Young" because it turned out to be very different than how I first predicted. I initially thought the poem would be about an athlete whose career ends early due to an injury, which is a very common thing in sports. I was surprised that the author took a different route with the poem. After reading it, I realized that the main point was that glory fades with time and the author made it convincing that there was an optimistic side to athletes dying young, but that's not to say that it's good for athelete's to die young by any means. This poem really made me think the most in depth out of all three poems and it was the most challenging to understand. My favorite part was how it talked about how the young athletes title as a great runner did not die before he died. Older people's great titles would fade long before they died, so it is saying that the young athlete died in the peak of his glory days. This to me really showed that the athelete died with honor, rather than giving a sad aspect on his death.
ReplyDeleteHailey: I agree with the comment you made about "TaADY" making you think in depth. By examining death from a positive perspective, Housman presents an interesting "counter argument", almost, to the commonly held belief that death is a completely sad thing.
DeleteI think the figurative language in "To An Athlete Dying Young" was easy to catch, yet still beautiful. There is parallelism in the first and second stanzas when the narrator says they carried him home shoulder-high. I also liked the framing using the word "laurel." At first it uses the word "laurel" simply as a shrub, and then at the end it uses it in terms of a grave adornment. It was a great use of the different denotations of the word. "Death Be Not Proud" is full of irony. It says we will get pleasure from death because we will be resting, which is very ironic because death is normally considered a tragedy. It says that death is a slave, which is also ironic because death is normally considered as unruly. It does what it pleases. Also, there is an allusion to the Bible in line 13. I like that it is the opposite of a carpe diem poem. "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" had a lot of repetition. Light was a symbol for life, and the light being taken away and the darkness were symbols for death. There is antithesis in the last stanza where it says "bless, curse."
ReplyDeleteTaylor, I noticed the antithesis of "bless, curse," as well. What really confused me is the possible meaning behind it. The curse in the tears could very well be the upcoming death of the father, as the whole poem is about resisting death, which he is imploring his father to do as well. If the curse in the tears is death, what is the the blessing? The blessing of crying could be that he must still be alive to cry, and therefore showing his valor by continuing to draw breath. The blessing could be that the father is still fighting against death.
DeleteTaylor, I liked how you linked all the poems together through their topic of death, it may seem morbid but the different aspects of death that are shown in these poems give broader perspectives. I did catch on to the irony in "Death Be Not Proud," but I did not catch the allusion until you pointed it out. And the symbolism of the laurel and different denotations of the laurel were used in the poem "To an Athlete Dying Young."
DeleteI really enjoyed reading the poems this week. My favorite is probably A.E. Housman's "To an Athlete Dying Young" because it goes in a completely different direction than what the title suggests. Instead of being depressing, like I had initially thought, it made the athletes death seem like a good thing. I think this poem had the best outlook on death out of the three, it made references to windows and doorways giving the sense that the athlete was passing through into another life but his legacy will remain. That being said I also enjoyed Donne's "Death, be not proud". This poem seemed to take a more combative stance towards death with its blatant mockery. I found that the line "Thou art slave to fate, chance, kings, and desperate men," really signified a shift in the speakers attitude because the personification of Death takes away its free will.
ReplyDeleteIf I had to say the poem that I thought had the best outlook of death, It would be "Death, be not proud". It bullied death to the point that it really came across as insignificant and not as intimidating as it seems. I had the most trouble understanding the poem, "To an Athlete Dying Young" but I finally interpreted it as dying young saves you from the future struggles of life (specifically “the rout of lads that wore their honours out”). It wasn't preaching to go out and die young, It was just stating positives in a world of negatives and thats why I also liked that outlook also.
DeleteI found this weeks selection of poems to be relatable, which is why I liked it better than last weeks. You relate more to a fate you know you are destined to- rather than a coy mistress or a flea. Each of these poems represented a different contrasting interpretation of death. "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" offered a personal, somber and emotional outlook on death while “Death be not Proud” took on a more trivial outlook. Though I feel I have a good comprehension of my mortality, I felt that these interpretations helped deepen my understanding. Simply the word death holds a depressing connotation in our society and I specifically liked how Donne’s “Death be not Proud” make an effort to reverse these dark assumptions of death. The paradox made by Donne, “Death, thou shalt die.”, really downplays and taunts death (along with referring it as “poor death”). That was the overall message you get from the poem. Death isn’t as big and bad as you think it is.
ReplyDeleteI agree a lot with Virginia's comments, this weeks poems were definitely a lot more relatable with a noticeable modern tone as opposed to those of last week. In Donne's "Death be Not Proud", I also saw that his view differed from those of the authors this week. He sees death as a release and something we should all look forward to eventually due to the rest that it provides and freedom of the soul. Where as "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" offered a very different outlook where death was attempting to be escaped from at all costs. Donne's main idea was more positive than others since it aimed to highlight the positives in death instead of reasons to fear it.
DeleteAlthough all three poems were centered around the idea of Death,"Holy Sonnets: Death, be not proud", by John Donne, seemed to affect me the most. In this poem, Donne personifies Death and highlights the power that it seems to have over man, as well as the pleasure that it unexpectedly brings. This "pleasure" is brought in the form of temporary rest and sleep. I found this to be important because it introduces that Death's grip over humanity is temporary and slipping away against the powers of "fate, chance, kings, and desperate men." "Fate" and "chance" are the antithesis of one another in that fate is set in stone and cannot be altered and chance occurs at random. However, while it's ironic that Donne juxtaposed them, they both are similar due to the fact that they add to the understanding that Death is essentially powerless, and a "slave" to be called upon. That being said, this poem was the most meaningful because unlike the other poems, it touched on the strengths while at the same time revealing the numerous weaknesses that Death possesses and hides.
ReplyDeleteJohn Donne's "Death, be not Proud," despite the outdated language, was the easiest poem to understand and my favorite. One quality that makes it interesting is that the poem is essentially an apostrophe, because the speaker addresses the abstract concept of death. The speaker's mocking tone also made the poem entertaining to read. In my interpretation of the last two lines of the poem, I think the speaker is referring to heaven, a place where people "wake eternally" and where death itself dies. I was wondering how others interpreted those lines. "To an Athlete Dying Young" and "Do not go Gentle into That Good Night" are almost like foils to one another. While Housman's poem praises the athlete for being dead, the speaker in Thomas's poem is very arrogant in accepting the fate of reality and death. I remember that in class Ms. Payseur said one of the poems was an elegy, is it Thomas's poem? I would think so because it is the only poem that views death as a negative thing.
ReplyDeleteNancy: I totally think Thomas's poem was an elegy. Thomas's poem reflected seriously on death, and the final moments of a man's life. While the other poems reflected on death, Thomas was the only poet who truly lamented death and the passing of a loved one.
DeleteMy favorite poem that I head read was "To an Athlete Dying Young," because it has a powerful shift from remembrance to grief, yet has an overall theme of remembering the fallen "hero" and their legacy. The narrator speaks about the triumphs of the athlete- "The time you won your town race," and looks to the future of the athlete and the triumphs they will never accomplish because of their tragedy. This links to another one of the poems in the sense of death being cruel, "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night." Yet the athlete is praised for their life, it still sees death as darkness and despair, just as "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night" does. The symbols of light and darkness representing life and death are shown in both poems, one showing life as a bright light and death as darkness, and the other showing life as a celebration and death being the end of the celebration.
ReplyDeleteThis week's poems were, albeit kinda depressing, surprisingly eye opening. No one really likes to talk about death, but these poets force the reader to confront the inevitability of it. "Do Not Go Gentle Into the Good Night" was personally my favorite. Thomas's growing desperation throughout the poem definitely struck a chord in me, especially by the last stanza, where it is revealed he's speaking to his own father on his death bed. "To an Athlete Dying Young", however, spun death in a different direction, portraying the fading of a young athletes glory as potentially more tragic than their actual death.
ReplyDeleteShelby: I also liked how the desperation in "Do not go gentle into that good night" built up to his father. I think this is the real motivation behind this poem. It definitely has a message for all people to fight, but it has a sense of selfishness. He does not want his father to go, or at least go like this. I think he does not want the last memory of his father to be weakness in the face of death. He wants every last minute to be strengthening, and something that he can be proud of after he is gone.
DeleteThe poem I enjoyed the most out of the three we read this week would have to be A.E. Housman's "To an Athlete Dying Young" due to the metaphorical sense it was written in and also the personal connection I was able to form with it as a young athlete myself. Housman depicts a famed athlete who has won the hearts of his hometown in his achievements slowly falling to fame and letting it tarnish his reputation. "And silence sounds no worse than cheers, After earth has stopped the ears" is included mainly to reinforce Housman's focus that the athlete at hand loses the respect and support of his fans and community by committing an action he should not to destroy his great reputation. Housman also repeats the idea of "shade" several times, I took this to mean that the runner may have encountered paths of shade while running that allowed him relief from the heat of the sun or a period of rest, but now that shade can be inferred as a total period of relief from his career as a runner. "Echoes fade" in stanza six stuck with me throughout my TP-CASTT due to the imagery it provided me with. I saw a runner reaching the end of his mile and footsteps slowly coming to halt so that you can't hear them anymore. For the athlete in this poem, this is both literal and figurative since his days of running are now being placed far behind him.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI did not like the message I received from “To an Athlete Dying Young.” Life is valuable, but this poem makes death seem more valuable as long as you have been fortunate enough to be victorious. Elegies are testament to life, not a thank you to death. Anyway, I like the repetition and denotation of “shoulder-high.” At first, he is on the town’s shoulders being praised for victory, but later he is being carried in his coffin. But both share a sense of glory. I am still confused about the irony around “shady night.” How can a night be shady? It has something to do with the nature of death. The mark of victory on a dead man lasts forever, whereas on a living man it withers quickly. What is more valuable: glory or living?
ReplyDeleteIn “Do not go gentle into that good night,” the speaker has a different angle on fighting for life. The parallelism of the different men at the beginning of each stanza sets up a comparison. All of these men must fight like the other, but each loses something different. The amount of euphemism for death is interesting. If one is to rage against death, then why not face it by calling it by name. I think it tells of the inevitability of death, and that even fighters know their true end before they start. Why call it that “good night?” Is it an allusion that I’m missing? From the tone of the poem, there is nothing good about this night, yet that is what it is called. This poem definitely views death as final. When you die, you’re done. There’s nothing more and no going back.
John Donne’s “Death, be not proud” lessens the power of death. Each line progresses death down another level. It arrives at slavery, the lowest level of humanity. The apostrophe used to personify death shows that it has no more control than a slave. It is not some lofty element that rules everything. Donne is able to do this because he defines death as a “short sleep.” There are many things in life that can induce a longer sleep. And sleep is necessary. It is refreshing. Peaceful. Even drugs cause sleep quicker than death. Those who see death as dreadful are the ones who are taken by it. I like the irony that death causes life. Death of the body is the rebirth of the soul. And which is more important?